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8h Suzuka Race - 10.6.2017

Discussion in 'Race Information' started by Simon Christmann, Apr 2, 2017.

  1. David OReilly

    David OReilly Active Member

    I have watched the incident. Exit of Hairpin and run up to Spoon. ( Turn 12). Contact occurs when LMP2 attemtps to pass GT car on the outside. lmp2 loses the rear end of his car and makes contact.
    I will refer to the applicable rule.
    1. Cars in a slower class always have to stick on the racing line and are not allowed to slow down or go off the racing line when being lapped by cars from a faster class.
    2. If a car receives a blue flag while being lapped by a car in the same class, the lapped car has to make way for the faster car as quickly as possible
    Bottom line is that the GT car is not required under the rules to do anything. He is expected to hold his line#. Blue flags don't apply except in your own class. Therefore the responsibilty is that of the LMP2 to find a safe way around ( a GT car that should be on a predictable racing line).
    On a more practical level the outside of a GT in a long corner is quite dangerous. GT cars have less grip and will often drift wide on corner exit or in long corners. It might have been safer to go under him than around him.

    IMO its an easy one. LMP causes contact while lapping a GT.

    # This is why it is pointless flashing lights repeatedly at people in slower classes as they aren't supposed to do anything different.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  2. Jan Studenski

    Jan Studenski Member

    That is a incorrect analysis of the situation in my opinion
    So lets analyze what I think was really going on and why I think this is a racing incident

    This is incorrect. This LMP car (its technically seen a LMP1 btw) didn't lose its rear - but came dangerously close to the grass there.

    So what happend is, the LMP went for the outside, because the racing line is on the inside there. Best is to hit the small kerbs on the inside there, but later the racing line is in the middle. There would have been and was clearly enough room, at least at the beginning.

    So the LMP moves next to him and is now along side. So at this point this has nothing to do anymore with 4.6 as the LMP is already along side. And 4.6 was correctly executed (GT3 stayed on the racing line, which is on the inside and the LMP used thereby correctly the outside line).
    4.6.2 has nothing to do with this as this refers to same class blue flags
    4.6.1 doesnt mean you just can stay on the racing line even if a LMP is next to you (and thereby force him off the track)

    So what happens now:
    The GT3 very probably didn't see the LMP and accidentally forced him wide on to the white line which defines the edge of the track.
    The LMP realized that and tried to avoid running onto the grass and makes a sudden (panic) move. You can see he had in the end like 10cm clearance onto the left and clearly didnt simply cut him off to the inside.
    In this case I think the GT3 did not know that a LMP was coming and accidentally left not enough room.

    So why do I think its not entirely GT3s fault:
    1. This was just an unlucky situation, in timing and the GT3 not seeing that the LMP was coming
    2. The sudden (panic) move of the LMP is understandable but ultimately leads to that contact
    3. The collision behavior shown in this situation is kinda weird, its like the GT3 has no weight in comparison to the LMP and thats why it spinning out that "harsh".

    Conclusion for me: Racing incident

    Btw the streamers did say "looked for me like the Porsche went wide"

    Thats not what the flashing headlights are for. Its for: "Warning, faster car coming".
    It also helps the slower class to know where the faster car wants to go past (if you see them flashing on your left you know, he wants to go left of you) - especially at night and its also visible in the mirrors.
    Why do you think they do flash headlights in real life?, where the rules are pretty much the same in multiclass
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  3. David OReilly

    David OReilly Active Member

    @Jan Studenski
    We disagree.
    Your analysis assumes that the GT3 must make some accommodation for the LMP. Under the rules he should not. He is required to maintain speed and use his racing line not to "leave room".
    Arnold Hausmann likes this.
  4. Jan Studenski

    Jan Studenski Member

    @Markus Broch - please clarify

    I would be extremely surprised if the GT3 does not need to give space when youre sidebyside ...
    Who is we?
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  5. Jon Uyan

    Jon Uyan Member

    @David, @Jan, With this argument you guys are proving why bringing in bunch of volunteer stewards from teams as 'Live Stewards' is not going to work!. Being a race steward and to be able to analyse incidents is not everybody's cup of tea, and that's one thing but also it will create inconsistencies on the rulings throughout the race. Arranging stewards who review race incidents or protests is P1 League's job not teams. Having few dedicated stewards to do this job is a bare minimum a league should be providing anyway. And the league's seriousness and integrity will depend on how it handles protests or how it does race reviews.

    We (Horizon group) started racing in the P1 endurance events last year with 12H of Road America. Up until this race we did not have any problems during our runs with any of our team cars. This race however prove that there could be big accidents and very easily we can be on the guilty end as much as being on the receiving end. The endurance series has some inexperienced drivers but mostly there are a lot of good drivers. Does this mean this was a "one off" race and we can go back to same as before? ...Or do we need some changes. Here are few thoughts:

    - Having 3 live stewards (simultaneously) is practically impossible in today's general simracing standards, there will be no such human power for that.

    - What we can hope for is P1 can provide one or two dedicated stewards who will be "on" one at a time, monitor race starts and most of the rest of the race as much as they can. Thinking about 12H and 24H races, if they are not on the server for period of time that would be ok still.

    - Teams can file their protests via TS to race steward if he did not catch the incident or he was not on the server at the time. When he comes back from his break he can still review the replay and rule on the proper penalty and issue to the team that was at fault.

    - If there are incidents that have not get addressed during the race OR let's say we don't have live stewards available for the race altogether, then there needs to be a way of penalizing teams that caused damage to others race. A penalty that still affects the outcome of same race!. A time penalty is pretty much the only fair way of doing this!. If a car (entry) is protested and found to be at fault and the penalty is 60 seconds, then this would be deducted from that car's race finish time. If it does not affect the finishing order it is fine but among teams that finished on the same lap this could play a big factor and change the race results, so the penalty still has some weight providing a fair outcome.

    - P1's rule book is not bad but it can use some improvements for example;
    a- There is no clear rule on passing?! This is one of the most important "acts" of racing and there is nothing about it. Definition of racing line, definition of side-by-side, blocking, defending, drafting etc need to be outlined and clearly defined so it is clear to drivers and stewards what is expected from both drivers during a pass.
    b- Blue flag situations (4.6) need more defined rules, especially for same class. "As quickly as possible" does not mean much for the steward, but stating as "Within 4 corners" or "At the second straight" are more defined rules.
    c- There needs to be a rule on use of flashing lights!. "Maximum of 3 times" or "No more than 2 seconds" etc. Otherwise it is open for abuse by drivers that have no regard on the driver up front.
    d- Article '5.0 Penalties' need to be more broad to cover specific situations to help stewards to apply a proper penalty for the incident.

    @Markus and admins, my intentions here is to help provide feedback to you guys and help this league get better in endurance racing. I am Race Review and Rules Committee chairman at Champion Motorsports League. We have 10 stewards and we review every race and every protest. We have a slightly longer rule book than your's but not that much. The point is it does not need to be long and complicated but it has to include essential ingredients. Having rules is all good and dandy but for fair competition they need to be applied to race incidents as frequently as possible. This is very important to gain confidence of drivers so they keep coming back for more racing.
    If I can help in anyway please let me know.

    Champion Motorsports home page: http://cmsracing.com/champion/forums/content/
    CMS rules and regulations: http://cmsracing.com/champion/forum...ral-rules-regulations-required-reading-25853/
  6. Jan Studenski

    Jan Studenski Member

    I think best reference would be SimRacing.Club
    They do VEC now for 9 Season - http://simracing.club/index.php?pages/vecRegulations/

    I agree with you on the topic of live stewards - its hard to get by 3 live stewards during the whole race that are capable of. As you said rules are not clear enough and missing a lot of things.

    @Jon Uyan There is also a discussion about that here: http://p1-simracing.net/index.php?threads/live-race-direction.1144/
  7. David OReilly

    David OReilly Active Member

    Jon I would respond that
    a) with an orientation session b4 the race most experienced drivers should be capable. The fact that Jan and I are not in agreement does not mean that clarity of the expectations can't be achieved. It just means it's not achieved yet.
    b) There were about 20 teams or 60 drivers. If 20% are capable or willing thats 12 stewards to share a rota and or help.The other 80% who cant handle it can stay away from the role. I dont share your view that its just the job of P1. They are a not for profit organisation of keen racers. In my view people who want to come and race should be prepared to do something to help. It's not just someone elses problem its everyones problem.

    Its also not that hard to fix:
    1) Practice race that forms part of qualifying.
    2) Proper breifing of drivers in TS about lapping etc
    3) Live stewards with a training session.

    I re iterate that with such steps incidents will in all likelyhood reduce dramatically.
    And isn't that what we want?
  8. Rene von Dobschuetz

    Rene von Dobschuetz Active Member

    Yes Jon, i´m by your side. I see more potential for dispute with Stewards than without. And i think we should not mess up with communities like simracing.club. They seem high professionell, i think that we more search an fun series, not as much over-regulated with the danger, not to reach the goals. For me it should work like the motto: sometimes you´re the dog, sometimes you´re the tree; sometimes you profit in a situation, sometime you loose, and everybody hope, it balanced himself in next race. Is there someone who is noticed by not acceptable behavior, we had to decide after the race, if we occupy some penalty for next race, even for the car he is subscribed for next race; maybe starting at end of the class-grid or stop&go during first stint or something like this.

    In german youth football we had leagues, playing without any referee. Aim of this is, to generate the ability to clear situations among themselves. Sure, we can´t hold on during race and talk to the other driver, but in clear situations, the driver forcing an issue should give back his advantage and race on. Masterpiece of this would be, to accept his own failure and do an drivethrough himself, maybe forced by his team watching the livestream. We don´t need an referee, if we all act fair and respect the rules. We didn´t reach 100% for sure, but we also didn´t by judge by stewards. But we should not have an reason to anger about Stewards, they didn´t have fun for do it one more time and we are standing without there. Things like last lap Spa in 2016 should not happen to reach an win in last corner, it´s not a sign of decency!
    But for an good together we should complete some sessions together in this obligation stints. There should be room to visit each other in TS and discuss some situations, maybe with P1 Orga as mediator. We should reach much more in doing together, as if with an authority.

    An good and fair together should makes the series attractive, combined with an more lovely presentation, more information, Briefing bevor race, maybe some wisper on TS like "Gentleman, cool down and watch your driving", "Respect rules and track limits" etc., and an befitting review by the organizer, maybe an podium-poster of the winning cars in the winning classes in an hall of fame. An good and lovely concept bring´s us the users in the grid, not an over-organized rules catalog. It must be fair, it must be fine and we all should look satisfied and relaxed for showing interested guys to joining us next event.
  9. Jon Uyan

    Jon Uyan Member

    And now is the sad part; I finished watching the stream and the replay and it is time for me to apologize to Lars Hagemann on behalf of our #65. It was a bad incident and caused a lot of damage to various cars very early in the race (L7). Jordy and I actually went thru the replay together trying to understand what went wrong there. It was a quick-judgement error, he thought the Porsche was going to take inside line thru the Dunlop Curve so he committed to outside but he almost ran out of track getting on the white line when Lars kept his Porsche close to outside line. Interesting to note that they actually never touched! When you look from top (3rd person view) there was still 30 cm gap between the cars when Porsche took the impact. There may be a collision detection problem with the Rebellion mod. Maybe something to look into?

    By the time Jordy came to a stop he was right in the middle of the track and he got collected by another LMP and t-boned by a red Camaro which essentially killed his engine and the result was an instant DNF. Seconds later our #63 was passing by and Jules failed to avoid the yellow LMP in front and rear-ended him, causing himself a spin but the other LMP was ok (I think). The yellow LMP had slowed down after the incident area so it was a surprise to our driver but we are still at fault on that one too.

    And finally, about 3 hrs after the start I was in the #63 when I got on the marbles going into Spoon Curve, lost my braking and rear ended C. Tuellner in the lead Camaro. I was passing our team GT car, he did not see me coming because of other GT that was behind him, so he was in the middle of the track, which made me stayed on the outside lane close to the edge and I had no braking after that, could not steer the car away from the Camaro.

    Really sorry about all 3 incidents. Timestamps are; 972.5, 991.5 & 8600 for the incidents.
    Lars Hagemann and Jan Studenski like this.
  10. Markus Broch

    Markus Broch Administrator Staff Member P1 gaming e.V.

    The exchange here I find great. Making a livejury is very difficult. There must be volunteers. Our long distance has ended with fun. It is not as small as it is at the beginning but also not yet professional. I can understand both sides and some things we will also change. So far, it has always been possible to squeeze and punish protests after the race. A set of rules should be short and not translated word for word. A healthy understanding of people is also part of it. So a GT3 should also play with some lmp and not unnecessarily block. You have to leave 5 degrees. We will rework the point with our rules.

    ps. The accident with the LMP and the blue GT3 was for me a racing accident.
  11. Jules Goux

    Jules Goux New Member

    I'd rather look at the Apex mod for a potential collision detection problem. It would not be the first time I hear about "invisible" contact involving these cars.
  12. Jon Uyan

    Jon Uyan Member

    Hmm did not know Apex cars had problems, something to keep in mind.
    David Tepper likes this.
  13. Mario Tump

    Mario Tump Member

    Hey guys,

    i'm joining a little bit late to the conversation but it doesn't matter i guess ;)

    First to the Race:

    Qualifying was very good and really close to the other opponents. I Got Pole and was very happy to Start from P1.

    From my perspective the Race was really good. I had only one accident with Heiko Kolvenbach but it wasn't that kind of a problem. I lost like 5 seconds but in a 8 hour Race 5 seconds are nothing. After my two Stints we had a solid lead (about 1min). After i handed the car over to Benjamin we lost a little bit of pace, because he got in trouble sometimes. After his 3 stints i got in the car again and drove to the end, because Benjamin had to go. I picked up the pace again to close the gap to Sikania Endurance but the gap was a little bit to big.
    Before the last pitstop i made the decision not to change the tyres to get in front of Daniele but everybody saw i was not able to defend my position.

    In the end congratulation to Sikania Endurance for taking the win in Suzuka. Daniele really wants this win, when you look at the overtake at 130 R :D

    Now i reply to the conversation about live stewarding etc.

    I saw the hole Replay, to get a picture of the accidents. There were some harsh moments in the Race with GT3 and LMP. From my perspective i had ZERO accidents with any GT3 car. So it is possible to do that. I think, that some drivers weren't able to get an inside view from a GT3 driver or they didn't know there own car (lmp) that good. I am talking about cornering speed, breakpoints etc. There are some Methods how to get used to it. Drove behind a GT3 car the hole Lap or go into a GT3 car by yourself and drive some laps. For the GT3 driver do the same, if you have problems to get used to the lmp car, where can they overtake, which topspeed they have, when do they brake etc. you guys don't need to do a setup, just drive some laps and feel it :) .

    Next part is foresighted driving (Look ahead) a car spins ahead and they pull there foot down like an idiot (sorry for the word idiot) but this is how it is. Rfactor 2 is really fast with Yellow flags, so nobody can say, that they didn't see any yellow flags. You have to keep in mind that this race goes for a decade, this isn't a sprint Race.
    There were some other moments for example TWO GT3 cars are in a battle. One of the GT3 pulls out of the slipsteam and would like to overtake the other GT3 car and a LMP was behind. But the LMP wasn't able to wait one turn to overtake both GT3 cars. he divebombed the GT3 car and there was a massive crash with 3 cars. I have no idea what some guys are thinking, just wait one turn , no accident and go ahead...
    Better loose 2 seconds than repair your car for 1 minute....Be more careful thats all i can say...:confused:

    Now to Live stewarding:

    i really really hope there is never a live steward in any race. I'm not a huge fan of it. We have to keep in mind that this isn't VEC, we do this for fun. I'm sure guys at VEC have fun aswell but this is another step to P1-Gaming at the moment. VEC has licenses now , entry fee to sort out some wreckers etc.. Hope you guys understand what i would like to say. I am sure there will be some moments where some guys aren't the same view with the decision of the race steward(s). Then we have 10 sites of talking about replays and i am sure it will get a little bit louder :(
    Then we read "I am not going to race the next race, live stewarding is shit" i did nothing bye"....

    I think we are good enough to sort things out, without any live stewarding but when 80% of the people would like to have race stewarding i am going to race with live stewarding aswell.

    If the live stewarding is getting real, we can do a poll, how many people really wants live stewarding.

    After that congratulation to Sikania Endurance Motor again and see you in the next Race.

    Mario Tump
  14. Mario thank you for the nice words you have written to my pilots, you are a great and honest driver as well as fast.
  15. Daniele Pizzo

    Daniele Pizzo New Member

    Congratulations to everyone and the direction of the race for organizing the race. I thank Mario for the compliments; Congratulations to you at your team for the big race

    At the next race

    Ciaooo Daniele ;):)
  16. Rene von Dobschuetz

    Rene von Dobschuetz Active Member


    please could you insert race result?!

    Cu, Dobbie
    David Tepper and Arnold Hausmann like this.
  17. Simon Christmann

    Simon Christmann Administrator Staff Member P1 gaming e.V.

    First post ;)
    Jan Studenski likes this.
  18. Jordy Zwiers

    Jordy Zwiers New Member

    Sorry for the car who I hit. I just felt incredibely stupid and forgot to post my apologies, so here they are. I misjudged the situation, as I am still new to endurance racing. I know atleast I wont be making such stupid mistakes anymore, I hope! Am forgetting this race, up to the next one.
  19. David OReilly

    David OReilly Active Member

    It is good that you have taken the time to apologise as did @Jordy Zwiers later.
    It was indeed a misjudgement and there is no hiding the fact that it took out the pole sitter and race leader ( my team mate).
    Awareness and judgement I guess come from experience and attitude. Jordy has acknowledged that it was his first endurance event.
    @Mario Tump makes some very good suggestions in his post above. Esp doing some laps in a GT3 car if you plan on entering in a faster car which carries with it the responsibilty of negotiating safe passes on the whole grid of GT3s every 10-12 laps.

    The GT3 cars dont have the luxury of choosing to take the inside line or the outside line in fast corners, they need ALL the road or they need to slow considerably (lift which is dangerous and unpredictable). They need the apex and they will also run wide. So the middle of fast corners are not a good place to pass.

    In my GT3 stints it was the leading 2 LMP drivers that showed the most judgement and patience. They never went for moves in the S-Curves or in Dunlop.

    I do think its a very good idea to have either a practice race of say 2 hours where its either part of quali and/or new drivers need to be there to learn the passing spots at that track.

    @Markus Broch
    I am curious about your call that the contact discussed as an example was a "racing incident".
    Generally that means that both drivers bear roughly even responsibilty. Can you explan what the GT3 driver did to be 50% at fault for the contact?
    Lars Hagemann and David Tepper like this.
  20. Jordy Zwiers

    Jordy Zwiers New Member

    Yeah, I wasnt trying to hide you were leading, as I felt really sorry at the time cuz I figured out it was the leading car on the stream. I just forgot to post my apology as I felt incredibely stupid as I am not used to make such silly mistakes. Different game, I guess (relatively new to rF2 still). Also my apologies to my teammate Brian, but he received those long time ago. I know for sure I will be really careful, and not take out a GT3 again. And again, sorry for ruining your race. My inexperience got the better of me :l
    Lars Hagemann and David OReilly like this.